Super charger using base speaker...

[StepVino]

Since it's kind of a slow post day, thought I'd throw this
out for discussion.

I've had this idea the last week, and can't shake it... also no
time to to try it right now..

What if you installed a crankase pressure sensor, and used
the signal to drive a base speaker... The speaker would be
mounted on an air box, with the box having an intake and exhaust
side. There would be a reed valve assembly on both the intake
and exhaust side. Exhaust side would connect to the carb.

Speaker would act as a pump, syncronized to the crankase
pressure. Was thinking of designing it to pump a max of 200cc/
cycle, adjustable with a *volume* control knob.. 50-200cc.
This way it could be used when upgrading to a bigger cylinder,
just by adjusting the knob.

[WildBill228]

..laugh..

[StepVino]

At least I started somebody's day with a good laugh... :D

It's one of those things that's hard to take seriously... as
silly as it sounds though, I think it has a chance of working.

[XPS1210]

well it might work for about 5 minutes, till the exhaust burns the speaker....

Just my thought!

[StepVino]

It would't be in contact with the exhaust... Purely driven
by a crankcase pressure sensor into an amp.

Piston comes down... crankase pressure rises... positive signal
(amplified) out of sensor drives speaker up... drops pressure
in air box, opening up air box's intake read and closing air box's
outlet read. Fills air box with air....

Piston goes up, crankase press goes down, negative signal from
sensor drives speaker cone down, air box's intake read closes, outlet
reed opens, pumping the air into the carb.

Stock read cage would stay....

I realize crankase pressure would not be a nice clean sine wave,
due to ports opening and closing... but those would be details
to sort out...

[XPS1210]

how hot do you think the exhaust gas is? I know at the head it's VERY high... as it makes its way through the pipe and probably comes out at what 200 degrees... throw a plastic coated speaker, paper speaker, etc in the mix... I see issues...

[StepVino]

It wouldn't have any contact with the exhaust...
It's purely an intake side device. Speaker would be pumping
fresh air into the carb, like a blower, but with timed pulses
syncronized to crankase pressure.

[WildBill228]

StepVino, don't get me wrong I really admire individual thinkers. That's quite an elaborate idea. You did provide me with quite a chuckle though. As far as the ehaust gas temp: that hasnt got a damn thing to do with your project so I dont knowwhyjered brought that up. Why dont you justmake some kind of supercharger. I have one for my scoot. Its just not installed yet as I need to re jet it. BTW I own the 2006 vino classic- yup the four stroke.
I can post pictures of my future setup tonight if you guys want.

[burnt_toast]

interesting idea, I'll have to read this later.

[vino'n'ukes]

As a retired research engineer, I'd say this falls within the realm of possibility, but there are a lot of issues to work out... both theoretically and experimentally. For one thing, the speaker would have to be big enough and have sufficient compliance to move greater volume of air than the engine would normally aspirate, in order to have boost. Also, the power source for the speaker must be considered. A powerful enough amp to get enough air moving would almost certainly require a bigger battery and more robust charging system than most scoots have.

MHO,
Dave

[WildBill228]

yeah even if you did pull this off you would spend oodles of time, energy, money and research doing it. Why not a supercharger with a fan with variable speed depending on throttle position?

[StepVino]

StepVino, don't get me wrong I really admire individual thinkers. That's quite an elaborate idea. You did provide me with quite a chuckle though. As far as the ehaust gas temp: that hasnt got a damn thing to do with your project so I dont knowwhyjered brought that up. Why dont you justmake some kind of supercharger. I have one for my scoot. Its just not installed yet as I need to re jet it. BTW I own the 2006 vino classic- yup the four stroke.
I can post pictures of my future setup tonight if you guys want.

A while ago it did cross my mind to use the finned pulley as charger...
Putting some kind of volute around it.. and compensating for the
loss of tranny cooling somehow. The problem is that the stock reeds
have to open and close, or the case would always be open.. seems
like that wouldn't work. Air has to be somehow pulsed in, in rythm with
the engine. I have seen the turbo vespa video, but don't know if
that engine uses reeds. Can't see how pumping air in the case,
regardles if the piston is going up or down, can work. .. It might,
I just don't understand how.

[WildBill228]

Yeah I see what your saying. Well, I'll put up some pics tonight of the supercharger I have that I am putting on my scoot...

[StepVino]

How will it be driven?..the super charger that is..

Look forward to the pics!

[WildBill228]

How will it be driven?..the super charger that is..

Look forward to the pics!

It runs off the battery and draws low power but at the same time provides substantial positive pressure.
Its pretty cool, it has two speeds hi and low, lol. I really only plan on using it in either the hi or low rpm range. I hooked it up with the stock jetting but it ran like crap. I need larger jets I guess. But I'll work it. I'm first going to put on a high performance exhaust which I am ordering direct from taiwan and a high flow air filter. I currently have a ruckus exhaust which I fixed to it, but it hangs too low. It's pretty sweet though, because it shoots blue flames, no lie. Its awesome but not practical. I'll try to post up pics of the turbo/ supercharger and maybe a video of the flame shootin exhaust, lol.

[XPS1210]

As far as the ehaust gas temp: that hasnt got a damn thing to do with your project so I dont knowwhyjered brought that up.

I'm about 99.9% sure he said he would route the exhaust gas onto the speaker... sounds like it has a DAMN thing to do with it...

hot gas on a paper/plastic speaker...

Does it only sound bad to me or WTF?

[WildBill228]

The speaker would be mounted on an air box, with the box having an intake and exhaust
side.
No I actually don't see the exhaust mentioned here. You misunderstood; he meant the airbox would have an intake and exhaust side.
..weird..
You know, for a moderator, you seem a little abrasive.

BTW, I'll get those pics up when I get home from work...

[Zuma-Zuma]

Well, to drive a large speaker, you need lots of power. In theory, your idea would work. You won't get a sensor to create that kind of power. Look at what drives those bass speakers, they run huge wires, some run caps. You're also talking of power in the 1000 watt range just for entry level. That sensor is creating a current used by a computer. Kind of like a thermocouple. I also think that the higher the rpm, the shorter the pulse-width will be, and the ability for the speaker to move at that speed. I understand your quest for power that nobody has thought of yet, proves "some" of us here have creativity. But the "Laws of conservation of energy" are your enemy. Basically, nothing is free (except the idea).
Kind of like putting an electric-assist motor on the crank. Its going to "use" the same or more amount of power as it creates. The motor itself may add actual power, but the electrical power will be drawn off the charging system (as a load on the crank), or carried as excess weight in another battery. Hate to sound like a downer, but just my .03 cents. I'm open for why you do or don't agree, its all good to me...

[WildBill228]

o-- o-- o-- o--
Only those smilies describe it! Haa! :dance:

flames out of my 06 vino's pipe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dNLoOQMFk4)

[StepVino]

Cool flames... what did you do to get those? Not that I'm ready
for flames...yet! Speaking about flames.. be nice to Jered, he's
da' main guy around here. I did mention exhaust.. but as you
say, the exhaust side (outlet) of this fictitional air box... Easily
misinterpreted, especially if you have to read almost every post..

ZZ... I'm not sure it would take that much power, or that big a
speaker.. I need to pick up any old speaker, and see what the
cone travel is at rated current. As far as speaker speed, or response,
12k rpm would mean an intake-exhaust cycle (for the air box) of
200hz.. (12k/60?).. easily in the range of a base speaker.

I'm hoping the concept (energy wise) is not too different from
a roots blower.. it takes energy to turn it, but the extra power you
get is more than what it takes to drive it.

[XPS1210]

What if you installed a crankase pressure sensor, and used
the signal to drive a base speaker... The speaker would be
mounted on an air box, with the box having an intake and exhaust
side. There would be a reed valve assembly on both the intake
and exhaust side. Exhaust side would connect to the carb.


My bad... when he kept stating "exhaust" he was simply talking about inside the air box...

However EXHAUST was mentioned multiple times!

[StepVino]

..I see where the confusion came in... that would be an odd
setup indeed.

Will update as soon as I get a speaker, and some data off of it.
Hope ZZ is not too correct, and I don't need a 300w amplifier :)

[Zuma-Zuma]

300, LOL. I think my last R/Fosgate ran over 1000, and it wasn't bridged. I didn't have caps, but needed them. I did need a dual battery setup, and a 200 amp alternator. Speakers draw mad power (the big bump'n ones) . I'm not sure that even if your math is correct, the amount of volume your speaker can push will keep up with the velocity of the air in the intake. It may just suck the speaker in, and keep it in. But I don't mind YOU trying it :):) Try and measure the negative pressure in the airbox. Then see if you can create or exceed this with the speaker in an enclosure. Atmospheric pressure is the only thing pushing anything. The motor just creates a "low".

[StepVino]

..I was thinking about the enclosure. It would need almost no free space
when the speaker is at full travel outward, so all the air would
be pushed out.. Might be able to do that this way:

Put max current in, till cone is all the way out.
Lay it down with cone facing up
Put a thin plastic film (plastic bag material) on the cone...
Fill it up with epoxy..
Keep the current on till the epoxy sets
Remove epoxy (reverse cone)... and install reeds in it.

Never measured the manifold pressure in the scooter... I know
in cars it can go down to 19" H20. That could be a problem --o
I'll get a vacuum tee next time I go to the autoparts store... although
I'd still be reading average pressure... should be a pressure increase
when the reeds close, however brief?

[Zuma-Zuma]

Gotta feeling your speaker will overheat before the epoxy sets up. Just don't forget to figure in the weight of the items you plan on using. Epoxy, speaker (magnet), and the rest. Adding weight is like taking power away. You also may want to do another little test. Use an enclosure from a set of subs. See if you can even make positive pressure by blocking off the air ports, and making your "reed valve" or check valve. If you can't get a micron worth of positive pressure, its a mute (ha ha) point.

[StepVino]

..hmm I had replied but it vanished

Anyways.. I tried to make the comparison with an engines
compression... If you remove the head, and stick a base box
on it... well, compression would vanish. :D

So, nope wouldn't expect much out of just closing the speaker's
vent hole. However, that's the whole idea about the speaker
cone mold... speaker cone would move towards it, reducing
the volume to almost nothing.

Wish I could draw a picture but we have 2 Dells.. both crippled. ;)