Perpetual Fuel Debate And Fighting Thread!

[mikhail masevich]

Dont use 93 octane in your scock zuma. Higher octane is not recommended and will not make it go faster. Why do people think this use the DAMN 87 GAS on a stock zuma.

[King Vino]

Oh no I sense the **** octane debate coming on again. Everyone get a fricken room if ya want to deabte the fuel again! :D

[marylandmark]

Higher octane=burns cleaner=less deposits=better 4 2 stroke engines=$.40 cent more a fill up=makes sense


(just to fuel the fire, pun intended...)

[XPS1210]

F$^k, I sense the damn fuel debate coming on again. Everyone get a fricken room if ya want to deabte the fuel again! :D


That's about my opinion of the fuel debate is the same... bottom line is... If your running "HIGH" compression you need higher octain... Octain is the rate that fuel resists detonation...

Thats is pure and simple! If you have a stock zuma with 7.2:1 or what ever it is... 85 octain is fine... however if you have a 70+cc cylinder with all the add ons... your probably "REQUIRED" to use 90+ octain... as the compression is raised!

[King Vino]

Bout ready to open up a open-all debate thread just for everyone to fight it out. :p

[larry-new]

...I'm willing to listen to all concerned on the fuel thing...the guys at the Yamaha dealer said to go to the higher mix...

...by the way, when I fill up @ half tank level...I wonder just how much higher octane fuel I'm really getting...the hose has to drain out the previous user's gas first, and I'm only taking on about .75 gal....hmmmmmm.

[mikhail masevich]

The guys that work and think as same as you . You think whata hell ill buy the highest octane gas its only $0.40 more. The yamaha dealer guys are so stupid if they told you to rn 93 octane. Your engine will run hotter.And your engine will not last as long . :(

[Lennox]

Higher the octane the cooler the burn my friend!!! And that is a fact JACK!!

[idahoscoot]

also in a lower compression motor running high octain fuel you will not compleatly burn all the fuel due to a slower burn rate , pointless to run in a low compression motor that is stock .

[thirteens]

Here's the best explanation I've seen on the subject.

http://www.bajajusa.com/Who%20Needs%20High%20Octane%20Fuel.htm

Bottom line: Use what the manufacturer suggests in the manual.

[marylandmark]

That is for 2 strokes!

I have a flux-capicator on my scoot and I have to use the good stuff...

[Wammy]

I just burn good 'ol corn squeezins.
100 proof

[thirteens]

You didn't upgrade your flux capacitor to the garbage burning unit?

And "corn squeezins" sounds like what you squeeze out the day after eating a few cobs.

[King Vino]

Save tha planet, burn a hippie :) All that hemp burns clean in yer scooter. heheheeh

[Wammy]

you know, hemp oil actually does burn quite clean. But I don't think it's 2 stroke.

peace

[XPS1210]

high compression needs high octain...

[King Vino]

None of this will matter because we'll all be ring fuel sale hydrogen-electric scooters any way by 2010 :mad:

[King Vino]

OK here's the offical rules:


No personal flames
Keep it within the realms of the TOS
Do not make threats to rape, mane or kill other members
Keep pants on
And lastly rock out!


I tried to make a new thread and merge them so this one will be on the top, but rats, it sorts the order by date. Keeping in mind that this thread was spun off from another one to begin with.

[veenou]

Hey dudes,
Here is a little tip to all of you cheapos who buy the cheapest gas. The cheapest gas will destroy your engine. Get the most expensive gas you can find. I just bought CleanSystem Premium Unleaded Gas from EXON ($1.99/galon) and my Vino runs like brand new. I couldnt believe the difference. I payed $0.70 more tho, which is not bad considering I get more than 90 miles per full tank of fuel. Also, if you have a stock egsaust I would suggest you blow some compressed air while it is hooked to the engine. The airpressure whithin the egsaust will blow all the particles stuck to your egsaust. I did it yesterday and two big chunks came out. My performance increased but is still not as brand new. I gotta a HUDGE ASS DENT in my egsaust, near the engine.

Top Speed: 35mph
Top Speed up the hill: 20-25mph
Mods : 0

I bet you can make it go faster than 35mph stock without de-restricting anything.

[sooznd]

How many miles on your scooter? Why don't you want to de-restrict the exhaust? I get around 102-105 miles per tankful on regular gas with a de-restricted exhaust.

[Rosso Mandello]

Don't beleive the hype!! Higer octane gasoline does nothing for you UNLESS you have upped your compression ratio or altered your ignition timing. It will actually cost you a very slight percentage of power, because it does not burn as easily. That's why you need it in a higer compression engine, because more compression=more heat. Too much heat in the chamber and the fuel/air will pre-ignite, or detonate. Since the "good stuff" is harder to burn, it will not ignite untill the spark plug tells it to.

Any performance gains you have perceived are more likely from cleaning some of that crud out of your pipe. That "huge ass dent" is likely costing you alot of power, though.

Do you really think the "clean system" additives do you any good when you are mixing the gas with oil before you burn it?? :o

[James B]

Its an extra 60 cents is anyone really that cheap?

[XPS1210]

I have and will run 90+ octain since day one of buying mine...

Just a personal prefference! Just like my old SVT focus I had (ford bought it back under the lemon law) required 91+ octain... people thought I was crazy but it's required for a reason!

High compression usually means you are required to run high octain...

Hell, the chips and stuff for most cars require the owner to run 91+ octain fuel just for changing ignition timing!

So yes, the octain rating can cause positive or negative outcomes on your engine... Is it goign to be noticable from 87 to 91 on tank to the next? Probably not... however it's a "lifetime" issue that I believe the cheap stuff or the good stuff makes a difference!

[marylandmark]

It has been at least a week since we have had a fuel debate thread- glad to see we are back on track beating this dead horse once again.....

[Rosso Mandello]

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/octane.htm

I neglected to mention in my first post that if the owners manual reccomends premium fuel, then yes you NEED to use premium fuel. Check your manual. If you do not need premium fuel, you will get absolutely no benefit from using it. I always follow the recomendation in my owners manual... UNLESS I have modded my vehicle. (such as raising the compression ratio or altering the ignition timing, as I said in my first post :p ), or have noticed signs of knock. The engineers at Yamaha worked very hard to ensure that I can save 60 cents on every tank. It's not a matter of being cheap. I waste lots of money on lots of silly stuff... but I would not throw my loose change away for no reason. I like to keep it in a big jar.

Of course, I do not have a Vino, but I assume that since it has the same engine as the Zuma, it is tuned for economy rather that high performance as well. If it says in the Vino manual that premium is reccomended, I will happily eat the words from my first post, in wich I was referring to a stock Vino. The Zuma calls for a pump octane of 86 or higher.

Anyway, my point is, unless you actually NEED the "good stuff", the "cheap stuff" will certainly not destroy your engine... but if it makes you feel good, buy it. The slight weight difference in your wallet may even make your scoot a little faster. Throwing some change away is much cheaper than titanium fasteners! :rolleyes:

[mikhail masevich]

I agree everything whar Rosso says. That is true if your scooter is stock use unleaded 87 What it recomends. Its not about the money the 0.70 cents its bull man just go to Shell and get 87. And trust me your scooter will not last as long ig you use the highest octane

[isoscelesjones]

Right on Rosso - I agree totally. Follow what owners manual recommends!

And as for the price of gas, well it's all about $2 a gallon no matter what you buy (around here anyway). I worry more about the ethanol additives in the gas. I think my manual says "use gas that has no more than 10%" - and I jst heard that MN wants to require a minimum of 20% ethanol in gas...

It's all crazy talk, if you ask me. :p

[King Vino]

You guys suck, I use diesel in my gas scooter
Nuke the whales, ride an atomic scooter
Alcohol powered scooters of the 70's are the best
I'm waiting for a fuel cell hydrogen scooter
I'm buying a hover-scooter like in Star Wars

[Aviatrixie]

Just a comment on higher octane gasolines... The higher octane rating doesn't make the fuel/air mixture burn slower, it simply has less tendency toward detonation (read "explode") under high compression. Since compression raises mixture temperature, in very high compression engines the compressed mixture can "pre-ignite" before the sparkplug fires. This tends to destroy engines in very short order. The higher octane rating simply raises the temperature at which pre-ignition occurs, and is really only beneficial in high compression engines. Because of the ports in a two stroke engine, the compression doesn't even begin until the piston is well on it's way up in the cylinder. Ergo, 2 strokes tend to be low compression engines by nature and don't really benefit from higher octane gasoline.

Back in my flight instructor days I used to run 100 octane low lead AvGas in my Honda CB-350 (I got if for free after all) and I didn't realise any performance improvement, but it did tend to lead up my plugs. We did have a regular clientele of race car drivers showing up to buy 130 octane AvGas for their race cars tho, but then I'm sure those cars had extremely high compression engines.

Just my $.02 ;)

Erika

[Lennox]

2 strokes tend to be low compression engines by nature and don't really benefit from higher octane gasoline.

Just my $.02 ;)

Erika


when compression on a 2-cycle is increased.....the octane must be as well....

[Aviatrixie]

Hi Lennox :)

True... but it would have to be increased considerably to require an octane rating higher than regular gasoline. If one were to radically mill the head then I can see a need for higher octane, but in general 2 strokes are low compression combustion chambers.

Actualy, I was reading a very interesting article the other day on just this topic regarding 2 strokes and octane... I'll try to find the link for you.

As always, there are exceptions to every rule. I was just speaking in generalities. Still... the rule applies... if you're engine isn't experiencing pre-ignition on regular gasoline then premium gasoline is a waste of octane.

Erika



when compression on a 2-cycle is increased.....the octane must be as well....

[Lennox]

Hi Lennox :)

True... but it would have to be increased considerably to require an octane rating higher than regular gasoline. If one were to radically mill the head then I can see a need for higher octane, but in general 2 strokes are low compression combustion chambers.

Actualy, I was reading a very interesting article the other day on just this topic regarding 2 strokes and octane... I'll try to find the link for you.

As always, there are exceptions to every rule. I was just speaking in generalities. Still... the rule applies... if you're engine isn't experiencing pre-ignition on regular gasoline then premium gasoline is a waste of octane.

Erika
Hey Avia, good to here from you! ;no (sux bout dem Stillers!)

I agree that ALOT of people waste their money on higher octanes...... but, even a 15% increase can cause all sorts of problems..... When I milled my ski head from 130# to 155#'s I HAD to start running at least 93 octane..... Remember, that on 2 strokes the gas/oil help in cooling the motor.....

Anyone know about adding tolene/xylene to gas??????????

[Aviatrixie]

Well... there ya go, Lennox... you're milling your heads and probably getting your compression ratios up where you DO need a higher octane fuel. But then, we all know you're a hyper-tuner kind of guy! LOL

I was thinking of Devon's initial post in this thread when I jumped in, and I do think it's that Dumbo Feather thingie he mentioned. The Vino cylinder probably has something like an 8 to 1 compression ratio and premium fuel would have no benefit. It's been years since I studied this stuff, but as I recall you don't need to upgrade octane ratings until you're in excess of 10 to 1... usually in excess of 12 to 1 compression ratios. With milling you can exceed even that even in a 2 stroke!

Erika

good to see you too, Len... and yeah, our Stillerz broke a lot of hearts last weekend. :(

But hey... they are a great team... and Ben's got so much potential... just wait til next year! ;)


Hey Avia, good to here from you! ;no (sux bout dem Stillers!)

I agree that ALOT of people waste their money on higher octanes...... but, even a 15% increase can cause all sorts of problems..... When I milled my ski head from 130# to 155#'s I HAD to start running at least 93 octane..... Remember, that on 2 strokes the gas/oil help in cooling the motor.....

Anyone know about adding tolene/xylene to gas??????????

[scooterconvert]

Well said Aviatrixie.

[Davey-boi]

In my deffense of my stupid comment, I once read that in a old thread. If I remember, I think King was the guy who said that higher octane burns slower.

[Scooterguy356]

So what should I be running in my R4 as far as the octane rating goes? Soon to upgrade to 70cc! :)

[shayandaman]

87 should be good because your compression is not that much to make the gas knock if your ur running a stock setup. anyway if you get a 70cc kit, your compression ratio will determine if you need higher octane gas or not. you might have to use 93

[Snyeed]

Just run the best you can get. Im sure your scooter will thank you:ll

[devonrs]

okay so then A: i've been wasting my money on the higher octane gas this whole time? (i realize it's only an extra quarter, but i fill up like twice a week... that's 26 dollars a year!) i kinda figured as much, being as the dealer told me there's no point in using it, he didn't go into details, but i doubt he would say that if there was even a tiny benefit, due to the price increase being so minimal....

and B: lay off the throttle... okay, yeah, i drive on the freeway pretty much 90% of the time, and am hardly ever not going WOT.. so i'm sure that has a lot to do with it... but are you saying to just accelerate slower or give it less throttle at top speed? cause when i'm just cruising at 47-50 or whatever, the six mile freeway stretch home from work (the speed limit is 50, btw, not 60), am i wasting gas by going WOT? won't i lose top speed if i ease back on the throttle? it's hard for me to tell in practice because the stage one top speed on my bike seems to vary with the weather, flatness of the road, and lots of other conditions, some days i seem to be going 3-5 mph faster or slower on the same stretch of road.... so it'd be hard for me to do a controlled test.

so.... verdict here is?

[XPS1210]

lay off the WOT!

It'll save you gas... but... It's all of 1.5 gal over 100 or so miles.... WHO FREAKING CARES!

RUN WOT! It's just a couple of pennies more to WOT compaired to gental acceleration...

or, play it safe and be nice to the engine... less WOT might make it last longer.

[King Vino]

Here we go again!

[BlitzK]

I'm using the oil I bought from provo... whats the best oct of fuel to use?

[pinkymingeo]

The stock engine has very low compression. You can pour anything in there that you feel like pouring. Well, kerosene might be a bad idea, but regular gas will work fine.

[XPS1210]

I've heard of people running leaded fuel in their scooters...

is there any benefit to this? as I thought it was illegal to run lead fuel in street vehicles...

I run the premium stuff... just my opinion with the 70cc's higher 13:1ish compression that it needs it...

[Snyeed]

I say get the best gas you can. the best around here is 93 octane (I think)

[florida derbi rocket]

I think Pinky is right..As long as you are tuned and jetted correct..why should a few Octane matter....Lennox..I know you Mix some kind of *****'s brew...C'mon...take the Bait!! :p (Y'know we love you man!!)

[smokin]

I've heard of people running leaded fuel in their scooters...

is there any benefit to this? as I thought it was illegal to run lead fuel in street vehicles...

I run the premium stuff... just my opinion with the 70cc's higher 13:1ish compression that it needs it...

The benifet to leaded gas is higher octane so that it won't knock if you have really high compression.

[florida derbi rocket]

I'm gonna run 93 anyway...but where do you get Leaded gas from anyway?..The local small Airport?..If I remember you can get 100 low lead..but I can't remember any higher Octane..or Leaded fuel..is there an Additive? :man: John

[Angelfire]

I run 110 Oct Leaded Cam2 race gas only cause I sell it advantage of it is 1 reduce chanes of knocking 2nd the motor runs alot cooler and 3rd burns cleaner less chance to foul a plug and you do notice a bit more power with it :) oh AND IT SMELLS GREAT.

[Angelfire]

if you can get 100 oct Leaded just go to a store where they sell car or truck parts and they normally have Oct boost leaded just becarful not to add to much oct boost lol or you will boost your Rod right outta your Case done it before on 5hp mini bike lol.

Only draw back from 110 oct leaded is to normal buyers it is around 4.15 a gallon

[Lennox]

I think Pinky is right..As long as you are tuned and jetted correct..why should a few Octane matter....Lennox..I know you Mix some kind of *****'s brew...C'mon...take the Bait!! :p (Y'know we love you man!!)

I plead the fifth......... :---

[marylandmark]

We have been through this time and time again...