Derbi Stage 1

[marylandmark]

Per Provo's Official How-To section (http://www.provoscooter.com/vbull/article.php?c=4) on Stage 1 installs, that is for every thing but the Derbi. The Derbi Stage 1 is exhaust and rollers only due to you don't have to change the variator...

Can someone familiar with the Derbi write up or PM me an idiots guide to roller replacement?

I am not sure if that needs to be done on my scoot but would like to - if it is easy- experiment a little to find what I like best...

[Lennox]

The 2001 Derbi Atlantis that I have "played" with is VERY similar to the Yamaha's. the only real difference is the lack of a "star"washer. :confused: Follow Provo's how to and your on your way to roller replacement ;)

Did they (the dealer) change the cluth springs?

[Aviatrixie]

Rollers are so cheap, I just have to ask, Mark... did they charge you labor for drilling the rollers? My mech gets $68/hr. Rollers are $15/set.

[Aviatrixie]

Stiffer clutch springs are really really important. Your new pipe makes wonderful power at the top end. Nothing is free, and you pay with lousy power at the bottom. If they didn't change the springs that would explain your weak take-off.



Did they (the dealer) change the cluth springs?

[marylandmark]

We already agreed on the price- $2900 out the door with tax, tags, MK SP pipe installed, side kickstand, carb rejet and variator derestricted.

They didn't charge me for drilling the rollers- they saved me money buy not selling me a new set and drilling the stock set for free. They charge $35 an hour for work unless you buy your scoot from then and then it is $25 an hour. GREAT for me but they are 90 miles up the road each way....


This is the email they sent me when I asked about clutch springs and rollers: (note what he says- more depth mid-range and higher top end)

Mark,
In discussing your options with Chris, our Service/Sales Manger, he recommends that you could get rollers at this point but isn't sure you would realize the benefit from a new (high performance) weighted clutch and/or HP variator. Reason being that without the power (ie. horse power and torque) that a big bore kit produces that clutch and/or variator won't engage correctly.

Word of advise about weighted clutches...... Great in a straight line but, huge risks are introduced in cornering, especially downhill accelerating into a curve. Wow..... that will test your skills. Remember, the Atlantis is the fastest production scooter in the market, merely removing the restrictor in the variator jumps the bike to 55 mph. The pipe delivers more horse power by then creating more torque. This crates more depth in midrange and a higher top end (speed).

The real way to realize MAXIMUM performance from this bike is the BIG BORE KIT! I would only recommend the MetraKit SP kit (the kit without the crank) due to the fact that once you go to the RR kit you will want to return the bike to PREMIX fuel. With the performance realized by the RR kit you DON'T want to rely on oil injection system..... one second without proper oil mix and that engine will seize.

As to the kevlar belt, GREAT replacement part when yours breaks or wears out.... 15K - 20K from now. Airbox runs the risk of having water drip into the carb due to the fact that the protective airbox is gone. The spring is part of the H/P variator kit. So, once you move here you will have it. The spring will increase the stall period before the variator engages.

The common thread in all the modifications you listed is they are all a MUST DO on race bike. But, for an everyday rider with some additional performance interests these are all high-end modifications that create additional maintenance and handling issue. None bad but understand what you have done when you do it.



All in all I think my scoot is tuned for a higher top speed which is gained by giving up quickness. I think they gave me what I was asking for- I think I just was not asking for what I really wanted....

All in all- I think the rollers is the 1st step in getting me where I need to be IF riding next week I decide I need to change it up...

[Aviatrixie]

I hope you find happiness in your new Derbi, Mark.

I remember when I was a junior in high school... a rock band I had just performed in won it's second "Battle of the Bands" in as many weeks. I was on top of the world and headed off on vacation with family. We spent that week at Daddy's sister's ranch. Her prize horse at the time was an Appalosa stallion named Maverick.

Maverick was like a 2 stroke. He could be very lethargic... needing a good kick in the ribs to get anything like a reaction out of him. But that summer I experienced something I never experienced from Maverick. I was riding around the corral with him, spurring him like crazy, and all of a sudden he cut lose and started running like crazy!

I hung on for dear life and as he approached the electric fence he swerved, causing me to wind up hanging on sideways in the saddle.

I finally got him settled down. Then I changed my panties.

The point I'm making is... 2 strokes aren't like your car. They have a mind and temperament of their own. You're going to have to get to know your Derbi to know how to make her do what you want her to do.

Too bad you didn't get to know your Zuma that way.

My Vino is a happy scooter! ;)

[marylandmark]

You're going to have to get to know your Derbi to know how to make her do what you want her to do.


I agree to a certain extent..

I think I am fairly close to what I want- just need some fine tuning to get the balance I want between take off and top speed. As long as I don't have to deal with carb jetting, plug reads and all that I think I might be able to handle getting the Derbi where I want it to be without hauling it back to the shop.


Too bad you didn't get to know your Zuma that way.



My Zuma is still here- roomie has not paid me for it- and am having 2nd thoughts and thinking about keeping it.. I really like riding my Zuma and it did what I wanted, when I wanted and so on.

I have to give my Derbi a fair shake and go from there- riding it a few hundred yards for 5-8 minutes is not enough..

From what I have read , the Derbi should be a better performer with the same mods than the Zuma.

[marylandmark]

I sent Erich an email asking him what rollers are in the Provo stage 1.

The pipe says "Ecologic" and I am wondering how that compares to the SP?

Anyone know what weight the stock rollers are?

Here is the Provo stage 1- can you tell what rollers these are?

http://www.provoscooter.com/shop/images/Derbistage1.jpg

[cant drive 55]

It looks like the box says Metrakit. I think that it also says 3.5g next to the size which seems to be 14x14. I might be wrong on all this and if so just correct me.

[van ringostein]

I just received this kit and I seem to be missing some kind of bracket to mount to the side of my motor, bolts up fine at the exhaust port. The rollers I received were 19X15,3 4,5 gramos.....if I remember my spanish that means 4.5gram rollers.

I am more concerned because I don't appear to have a support for the main part of the pipe.

[marylandmark]

Van-

By chance what are the stock rollers in your scoot?

Profile says 04 Atlantis- is it the Bullet or City? Got pics?

Do you know the difference between the SP and the Ecologic pipe and why did you go with what you did?

[van ringostein]

Well I have the city, although I should have gone with the 03 bullet because I found it for 1800 (only 1 mile on it) a month after I purchased my 04 city.....oh well....I don't have a digital camera so no pics yet and I ordered the stage one kit from provoscooter, it I just received it yesterday 3 weeks after I ordered it, and it is the ecologic, I like the looks of it, but it does not mount directly to the mounts that are pre-built for the stock pipe.

I beleive the original rollers for the Derbi are 17X12 7.0 grams

I got this info from this website...hope it goes through.

~Deleted link~ no external links to other retailers...

[marylandmark]

The rollers I received were 19X15,3 4,5 gramos.....if I remember my spanish that means 4.5gram rollers.



What color were they? Red?

Here is a link for Metrakit roller info (http://www.provoscooter.com/vbull/showthread.php?t=2011)

[van ringostein]

Nope looked nothing like any of those in that link......the outside of my 4.5gram rollers were yellow said 4.5 grams on them and had a chrome/silver inside and the inside diameter was more open than any of those pictured. Ok, can't find a picture of what mine looked like on the net. But it seems that the 4.5 gram is the way to go for the roller weights.

[marylandmark]

I think I am going to order a few sets to see what works best- maybe even a combo of them might work. Say alternate 4.5g and 4g or some thing?

With us having different pipes we could have different "best tune setups"- my pipe is a mid-range/top end pipe so I might need lighter rollers than what your setup calls for. Still trying to find out what the difference in pipes are- sent out a few emails so should have an answer by someone tomorrow....

At $10-15 a set I think I will order 4g, 4.5g and 5g and play with it a little to find the best combo... Wish me luck- tools and I don't get along very well...

[XPS1210]

you shoul dhave a bracket that mounts the pipe by the flywheel...

[van ringostein]

I did not receive one in the kit, and my stock pipe is welded to the bracket, not that it would work anyway.

[marylandmark]

Now I am all confused about the rollers....

My dealer says:

Drilling out the rollers (aka lighter) increases mid & top end cuz it stretches out the time when the rollers roll out. Heavier = quicker out of the hole / lighter = stronger mid & top end.

Pinky says:
Heavier rollers give much better mid-range and top speed.

Lennox says:

I think he did not drill enough out of the rollers if the take-off is that bad........ (meaning lighter=better take off/heavy=better top end)

My stockers on my Derbi were 7g- drilled out to whatever they drilled them out to...

Van says 4.5g is in his opinion the way to go.
Beedspeed recommend 17x12x5gram rollers.
Lennox and Pinky recommend lighter than what I have based on above comments.


I still have not had a chance to ride my scoot so all this might be moot- just really trying to find out what weight direction to go to be quicker which will in turn drop my topend.... Thinking once I get to ride my scoot and still want to change I will order the 4g, 4.5g and the 5g to test it out for myself which works best for me...

[marylandmark]

My dealers email to me when I asked about what I should to get my quickness back...


Yes, the relationship to the acceleration response has a DIRECT relationship with the rollers in the variator. Gain one end loss the other. However,................... throw enough torque and horsepower at the variator with a weighted clutch and stiffer spring that thing snaps out of the hole complimented by strong acceleration through the mod-range and ultimately increases top end to +/- 65 to 70 mph! Very impressive!

Drilling out the rollers (aka lighter) increases mid & top end cuz it stretches out the time when the rollers roll out. Heavier = quicker out of the hole / lighter = stronger mid & top end.

Suggestions,

MetraKit SP Big Bore Kit!!!!!! I understand the drive and Yes, changing out rollers isn’t too difficult. Little tricky but not difficult. I am sure you could do it. If any thing roll them back to stock.... however, you may have jetting issues at that point. Especially, as the temperature and humidity change.

[Lennox]

your dealer is %100 backwards on the rollers!!! BUT he is %100 correct about you getting the 70CC!!! :p

[marylandmark]

MetraKit Rep just called me back and said 4.5g is the way to go...

He said:

heavy rollers=slow take off but higher top speed
lighter rollers=quicker take off but slower top speed

He also said that is you find the best balance my take off will be awesome and my top speed will be awesome as well. The correct rollers for my scoot, body type, riding conditions and all that are important- however, with the right combo things like a full fuel tank and so on will lower my top speed more than the .5 gram difference in the next heaviest rollers.

All that sums up to pretty much what I have heard said before-

If I find the "best use" rollers for MY scoot and set up, my top end will be within 1-2 MPH of what a heavier set of rollers would give me and my take off would be within 1-2 seconds 0-35MPH of what a lighter set of rollers would be....

[Lennox]

NEVER doubt the power of Provo Forums!! ;no :p

[marylandmark]

NEVER doubt the power of Provo Forums!! ;no :p
YOU KNOW IT!!!!

[XPS1210]

yes... the lighter the rollers the more take off and low-mid power... the heavy work for the top end better... period...


and yes 70cc is the way to go...

[marylandmark]

Latest email from my dealer... I feel like he is trying to sales pitch me, however it could be that what I am looking for is only obtained with a 70cc kit as well...

Hi mark,

I'd have to check but the clutch is about $100. Here’s the deal...... the lighter the roller the longer it takes for the "transmission" (not really but let's call it that) to engage into the higher "Gear" or more accurately RPM / power ban.

Lighter roller loses the crisp take off that the Atlantis is famous for but, delivers more power to the mid range and top end. Heavier rollers engage quicker, giving you more torque out of the hole but then that is it. A stock bike take off very quickly, has "good mid range but then kinda flattens out. Where as by using lighter rollers you are pushing your torque to the mid range and giving much better depth and some higher top end BECAUSE the power ban is actually engaging "later".

Performance in a centrifugal transmission is like a sliding scale. The bike ONLY develops so much horse power and torque so the question becomes "What kind of performance are you looking for?" It's all about balance, you want hark "ass kicking" bottom end then get heavy rollers with a weighted clutch and a softer spring.

Here's what we recommend...... your bike lacks the hp & torque to drive the bigger clutch or spring and a bigger carb needs the big piston. Sooooooooo, either go back to stock rollers keeping the pipe or let's just do the big bore and that bike will be competitive to 125 / 150 4 strokes.

[marylandmark]

If I find the "best use" rollers for MY scoot and set up, my top end will be within 1-2 MPH of what a heavier set of rollers would give me and my take off would be within 1-2 seconds 0-35MPH of what a lighter set of rollers would be....

Is that an accurate statement or am I way off?

[marylandmark]

Anyone?

[Lennox]

sounds pretty accurate :naught:

[van ringostein]

Ok, I found that the rollers that I received in my stage 1 kit were for the GP1 not the Derbi Atlantis, they are 4.5 grams but a little larger than the rollers for the Atlantis. I have used 3 stock rollers (7.0grams), and 3 of the metrakit rollers (4.5 grams) that works out to a total 34.5 grams, I am thinking of ordering a set of 5.5 gram rollers and running them for a total of 33 grams, hoping for a little better take off.

And Mark, hate to say this, but you need to have your mechanic read our forums, because light weight is good for low powerband speed (0-20 or so) and heavier weights are better for the higher powerband (21mph+) And to be honest, with the way my Atlantis is running, I don't know if I would go with a stage 3, because I would have to carry oil to do pre-mix and personally don't like to deal with that stuff.......I am too lazy for that.

[florida derbi rocket]

Pre-mixing isnt so bad..I used to go on a saturday morning with the Measured amount of Oil already in the Bottom of the empty containers..and fill up several at a time..From the Looks of Lennox's pictures he does this too..( Red Cans as far as the eye can see ;) ) john

[marylandmark]

Ok, I found that the rollers that I received in my stage 1 kit were for the GP1 not the Derbi Atlantis
On the website they are listed as 2 different kits- item 122 and 117- but have the same picture and price. The price changes on stage II and III so make sure you were charged right as well..

And Mark, hate to say this, but you need to have your mechanic read our forums, because light weight is good for low powerband speed (0-20 or so) and heavier weights are better for the higher powerband (21mph+)
Yea- we got that straight... He was confused- he was saying it well, just backwards. He is the owner and salesman, the real dude is the mechanic and got him straight.

And to be honest, with the way my Atlantis is running, I don't know if I would go with a stage 3, because I would have to carry oil to do pre-mix and personally don't like to deal with that stuff.......I am too lazy for that.
PLEASE EXPLAIN.. I am hoping you mean that as in it is a monster and a stage III would be SCARY to ride because it is so fast and quick. :yippy: The other way could mean your scoot is running like poop and not worth putting any more $$$ in it... :confused:

Lazy? ME is VERY lazy but premix will not be a probelm for me.. I am going to run Amsoil which sells single use tiny bottles. My tank is 7.2L/1.9 US gallons- dump 1 in when I fuel up- worse thing that could happen is I would be running a tad rich. I can "eye it" as well- leave a little left in the bottle if I am filling up at less than empty tank.

[marylandmark]

Read your other post in this thread and YIPPPPPPPEEEE (http://www.provoscooter.com/vbull/showthread.php?t=2084&page=3&pp=10)

:yippy: :yippy: :yippy: :yippy: :yippy: