Hydrogen as a fuel

[Aviatrixie]

Hydrogen is the perfect fuel... we have (literally) oceans of it (and the oxygen it burns with). The problem is that the covalent bond between oxygen and hydrogen is so strong it takes more energy to utylize electrolysis to break that bond than we can realize from recombining them. Ultimately the only workable solution is fusion. But we all know the issues with fusion.

In the end, we must master fusion. Nothing else will give the returns. Let's face it... fusion has been powering this universe forever.




Today, 03:55 AM
Aviatrixie
Scooter Mama Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA USA
Posts: 588





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Plus, 2 strokes make twice as many power strokes as 4 strokes per minute. And expansion chambers make those power strokes even more powerful. But... expansion chambers simply do not work on 4 strokes. (it was all in my first Trixie Report).

That's why 4 strokes are allowed to be twice as big as 2 strokes in professional motorcycle racing, yet the 2 strokes still win. And turbines simply aren't even allowed in Indy car racing anymore. Some advantages simply cannot be overcome.

2 strokes are the ramjets of the reciprocating engine world.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jered
yep... it cost 2-3 times as much to modify a 4 stroke with the same parts as a 2 stroke... IMO anyway...

Bottom line 2 stroke parts are cheaper!

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2001 wine red Vino

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Last edited by Aviatrixie : Today at 03:58 AM. Reason: typo

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#8 Today, 04:53 PM
Big Daddy T
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In other words it could become quite possible that whenever (if ever) hydrogen vehicles become THE style of motor of choice two strokes might make a come-back (no polution after all, lol). That'd be kinda spiffy *quits rambling*
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#9 Today, 05:50 PM
Aviatrixie
Scooter Mama Join Date: Nov 2004
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Eventually hydrogen WILL become the fuel of choice (by default). We're burning dinosaurs (and plants) that died eons ago. It's an extremely limited resource that we've been using for transportation for about 100 years. Oil is expected to hit $60/barrel this summer. I burned 36,000 lbs of those refined dead dinosaurs at work today. If not in our lifetime, our children's lifetime... otherwise our grandchildren will be riding horses to work.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy T
In other words it could become quite possible that whenever (if ever) hydrogen vehicles become THE style of motor of choice two strokes might make a come-back (no polution after all, lol). That'd be kinda spiffy *quits rambling*

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#10 Today, 05:55 PM
Big Daddy T
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I agree that it will eventually be the fuel of choice. Really the primary issue is retro-fitting gas stations, saftey at fill-up, and storing it in the vehicle. It'll be the way of the future, but not as long as oil companies play a role in the entire thing/
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Today, 06:09 PM
Aviatrixie
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Great topic... but we're totally off topic now for the tread. Our poor Admin is going to have to move it to the lounge if we don't take it there ourselves.


I'll do it now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy T
I agree that it will eventually be the fuel of choice. Really the primary issue is retro-fitting gas stations, saftey at fill-up, and storing it in the vehicle. It'll be the way of the future, but not as long as oil companies play a role in the entire thing/

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Erika

2001 wine red Vino

(stage one kit installed)

[Big Daddy T]

I would have to find my old resources, but if I remember correctly actually producing the hydrogen wasn't the primary worry. In fact, the way plenty of articles were talking, it wasnt a costly adventure like it used to be. Maybe I'm wrong. It's been known to happen.

[Aviatrixie]

Free hydrogen doesn't exist in any usable quantities in nature on this planet. What there was in the atmosphere originally disappated into space eons ago. Hydrogen is the lightest element,after all. The simplest way to aquire free hydrogen is to seperate the hydrogen from the oxygen in H2O via electrolysis. That takes a good amount of electricity to do, though. That's why it's not been economically feasable in the past to do.

Other issues with hydrogen are it's extreme flammability (the Hindenberg was filled with hydrogen), but then gasoline is extremely flammable too, so it's not that big an issue. The fact that it is a gas is a big issue though. It would take a huge tank to hold the BTU equivalent of a 15 gallon gasoline tank. Liquified hydrogen would be much more compact, but since hydrogen doesn't become liquid until nearly 300 degrees below zero ( I forget the figure exactly, but it's approaching absolute zero. Helium takes the lowest temperature to liquify, -368C... a fraction of a degree above absolute zero. That is why liquid helium is used to cool superconductors. ) that would take some hefty refrigeration equipment installed on the vehicle.

If and when fusion is controlled the production of free hydrogen for use as a fuel will become much more practical, as electricity will become much more abundant.

[Big Daddy T]

If hydrogen vehicles are such a challenge to make (which I can see why they are) why does it seem like every car company seem to have one that they claim that it'd be affordable? If it requires as much as you say (which it does, lol) how could they keep cost down? When I did research on the topic (two, three years ago) they said a person would even be able to retrofit older gas-running vehicles for less than 4k.

[Lennox]

If hydrogen vehicles are such a challenge to make (which I can see why they are) why does it seem like every car company seem to have one that they claim that it'd be affordable? If it requires as much as you say (which it does, lol) how could they keep cost down? When I did research on the topic (two, three years ago) they said a person would even be able to retrofit older gas-running vehicles for less than 4k.

I think the propane retrofit is around that cost..... but Hydro? :confused:

[Aviatrixie]

Lennox is right, that's a propane conversion. Propane works ok, but it has less energy than gasoline, so engines on propane don't perform as well as gasoline engines.

Besides, propane is more "dead dinosaurs" fuel. It will be used up someday soon too.

[Big Daddy T]

I'll see if I can find my old resources later. Right now I'm already trying to multi-task and read three different things, lol.

[Big Daddy T]

Hey hey, I found my old resource. You guys are right. BUT you can get your vehicle converted for only 60-100k. NOT BAD! lol :p

[XPS1210]

you guys sound like the one of my kids who works for me...

she was mad because we had styrofoam cups... and says they aren't biodegradable...

but... as we all remember... we aren't supposed to have flame wars on these topic... so let all remember to play nice...

[Aviatrixie]

Hiya Jered :)

We're not having a flame war... this is a friendly discussion!

But your female friend is right... styrofoam cups aren't biodegradable. Not an issue though, since they can be recycled.

ummm... you all do recycle them, right? ;)

[yama916]

2 cycle cheaper to modify?? well, if you dont need TORQUE I guess I can agree with that.. but I think ultimate for cars anyways, is TURBO... can't beat it IMO, cheap as heck to modify... actually some times its free... no 2 cycle can give the turbo feeling.. and i love the fact I can create my own atmosphere at high altitude.. I dont see any 2 cycle airplanes do you??? 2 cycles are dirty and weak... its a good candidate for racing motorcycles because you can stay in its NARROW power band if your good... but that is a rare occasion.. turbo though... hmmm i love turbo... http://www.provoscooter.com/vbull/images/smilies/worship.gif

and when it comes to economy, i would have to say TDI is the best solution at the current time... more and more TDI , CDI are coming to the states.. Americans have a generalization of diesel to be rattle buckets.. but its just not true. VW, Benz make one of the best TDI out there, huge torque, good power and much better gas milage than any gas competitor..

then 3rd place is 2 stroke... thats only IMO...

but i do agree fusion would be the ultimate.. my college prof. told our class that he spoke of fusion some 20 years ago at some convention.. stating we are only 50 years from perfecting it... well he told us this year we are still another 50 years away.... so unless there is a huge break thru, I doubt any of us will ever see fusion that is economical.
http://www.provoscooter.com/vbull/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=15041#
worship
:worship: :worship:

[Big Daddy T]

We're not having a flame war... this is a friendly discussion!


Yup, no flamin' going on here. I'd be calling every one a big stupid dooty head if I was flaming. o-- :)

[Aviatrixie]

Actually, there ARE airplanes that use 2 strokes. They're called ultralights. I recall someone breaking an aviation record flying a powered hang-glider called an Easy-Riser back in the late 70s. He had a 2 stroke strapped to his back, an oxygen bottle strapped to his waist, and climbed to 18,000'.

As to turbos, I recall the turbo craze on motorcycles in the early 80's. Honda had a turbocharged CX-500 V-twin, Yamaha had a turbo'd inline 650... they were born and died within 2 years. Turbos make a lot of sense in airplanes, where you want to climb into rarified atmospheres but still produce power. At sea level turbos are fun, but are also expensive, and tend to fail, as well as cause engines to fail. What a turbo does is increase induction pressure. More fuel/air mix in the chamber. It's much cheaper and more reliable to simply bore a bigger hole in the cylinder. Same end result. That's why nobody sells factory produced turbo motorcycles anymore.

Anyway... 2 strokes aren't perfect, but they do have their strengths. They are a unique engine that have a lot of tuning potential.

p.s. 2 strokes have more torque than 4 strokes. The 1971 Honda CB-350 produced 36 HP and 19.5 ft/lb torque. The 1971 Yamaha R5 produced 36 HP and 28 FT/LB torque. They were both 350cc engines. Google it! ;)


2 cycle cheaper to modify?? well, if you dont need TORQUE I guess I can agree with that.. but I think ultimate for cars anyways, is TURBO... can't beat it IMO, cheap as heck to modify... actually some times its free... no 2 cycle can give the turbo feeling.. and i love the fact I can create my own atmosphere at high altitude.. I dont see any 2 cycle airplanes do you??? 2 cycles are dirty and weak... its a good candidate for racing motorcycles because you can stay in its NARROW power band if your good... but that is a rare occasion.. turbo though... hmmm i love turbo... http://www.provoscooter.com/vbull/images/smilies/worship.gif

and when it comes to economy, i would have to say TDI is the best solution at the current time... more and more TDI , CDI are coming to the states.. Americans have a generalization of diesel to be rattle buckets.. but its just not true. VW, Benz make one of the best TDI out there, huge torque, good power and much better gas milage than any gas competitor..

then 3rd place is 2 stroke... thats only IMO...

but i do agree fusion would be the ultimate.. my college prof. told our class that he spoke of fusion some 20 years ago at some convention.. stating we are only 50 years from perfecting it... well he told us this year we are still another 50 years away.... so unless there is a huge break thru, I doubt any of us will ever see fusion that is economical.
http://www.provoscooter.com/vbull/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=15041#
worship
:worship: :worship:

[mrklaw]

They just had an interesting scientific american frontiers episode about this. Apparently, Iceland is working on getting rid of their oil dependency by switching to hydrogen. They are using their vast geothermal resources to make it.

[Aviatrixie]

They will use their geothermal resources to generate electricity to produce hydrogen. Makes sense.


They just had an interesting scientific american frontiers episode about this. Apparently, Iceland is working on getting rid of their oil dependency by switching to hydrogen. They are using their vast geothermal resources to make it.

[Iceman]

Just stumbled on to this topic of hydrogen powered vehicles and remembers seeing a scooter on another web site called the Aqwon. Made and certified in Germany apparently in 2003. Kind of pricy but they even had a hydrogen generator and storage system worked out.