im back! still some minor (?) probs.

[Malformed]

i had an experiance with my crank shaft threads being stripped from all the messing around so i havnt been able to work on this problem untill now.

so here is what i have right now:

zip r3i
19mm carb & filter
70cc aluminum
performance exhaust
technomoto variator, 4 gram rollers i think, could be 4.5
kevlar belt
clutch springs.
i had the torque spring replaced, but it worked out better to use the stock one for some reason.

i still have poor accelleration up to about 10mph, then its nice and steady to 50mph +/- runs sweet at that point.

if i let off the gas completely it wont drop below 10mph or so unless i hit the brake.

if im going, and stop at a stop sign, wait a min or so, hit the gas, it bogs down untill it gains some speed.

i put it up on the stand with the wheel off the ground.
the rear wheel started spinning right away, even with the idle turned all the way down, it spins and gains quite a bit of rpm's

(i read the how-to and i know im suposed to adjust the idle screw in if it bogs when accelerating from idle, but i cant or the rear wheel spins even more.)

i dont remember it doing this with the stock variator/rollers & belt installed.

my question is, why?
and do i need different weights or should i just put the stock variator & weights back on?

if this is normal for the scooter once its got all the performance parts installed let me know.

[XPS1210]

try lighter roller weights, allong with putting the replacement spring back in... your clutch is enguaging to soon and your scooter isn't able to get to the correct RPM's it's supposed to before it starts moving...

The rollers are probably a little to heavy for your set up if the rear spring isn't working with the larger one installed...

Bottom line... Your clutch needs some adjusting... Either the clutch is being spun to quick and enguaging from the smaller torque spring or you might need to change to different clutch springs... but start with the torque spring...

If that all makes since!

[florida derbi rocket]

Hey..I think It would help if you told the forum your weight..and if you have hills...or Wide open spaces..that you ride on..I have been Chatting with a guy from Washington state..and he really did a lot of switching back and forth with the springs ..and the Rollers..But in the end..He was very happy and thought the trouble was worth it...Just a Thought! ;) John From Jax

[Malformed]

none of it makes much sense to me at all. i think im allready using the second to lightest weights available. stock are 4.0 the ones i got were 4.5
nothing i do seems to help and i cant afford to sink any more cash into this.

i've had the scooter in the shop for the past couple months trying to get this to work out and every time i get it back here i end up having to take it back.

225 lbs, flat roads.
i had all the performance parts on before i took it to the shop last time, everything except the belt. and i still had this prob, actualy the accelleration was quite a bit worse, and top speed wasnt as good as it is now. (yea, that was even with the torque spring you are telling me to put back in.)
with all the perf parts, i had more of a accelleration prob.
i drove the scooter the 9 miles from the shop to home and the belt was very worn. lots of belt dust in the case, and my new rollers had noticable flatspots.
still do actualy, but i dont have any to replace them.

i think the only time this scooter was rideable was with the technomoto variator, stock belt, stock clutch springs and torque spring.
when i hit the throttle, it would rev up and then engage and go.
tell me if that makes any sense?

doesnt make any sense to me, i figured the more tension the springs had the higher RPM it would need to engage... correct me if im wrong, but i think im seeing the opposite and i dont understand why.
im not even sure what the torque spring does, anyone care to enlighten me?

also, whats the differance between the stock variator and the technomoto?
is it just how smooth the stock one is compared to the texture the technomoto has?

im sorry everyone, honestly. i dont understand why i am having so many probs with this scooter.
at this point id like to just make sure its rideable and im going to either sell it or let my g/f have it.
i will just buy a motorcycle.

[Malformed]

i was thinking about this for a while, and even if i get the clutch to spin without engaging, its still going to idle too high.
its just going to spin inside the crank case without spinning the wheel.
but im sure i can fix that, its just going to take some tinkering with the air/fuel mixture screw, throttle cable, and idle screw.

i dont recall having this idle problem when i was working on it before taking it to the shop. the mechanic couldnt get it started, he didnt know the little trick of blocking the intake enough to open the fuel shutoff valve... so he probably tried adjusting the carb. (sucks, i had it where i wanted it.)

its obviously idling too high right now, and with the clutch engaged while the scooter is standing still, its putting a load on the engine - holding it back.
so its allready getting the gas & air it needs for the rpm's its trying to put out...
so when i hit the throttle its getting MORE than it needs so its bogging down till i get to the rpm the engine would be going in the first place if the clutch were working as it should.
to reinforce my theory, adjusting the idle to be higher in actualy made the problem worse instead of eliminating the bogging.
if i have worked this out correctly, this could actuly be whats causing my piss poor accelleration.


so ignore the variator for now, it appears to be functioning properly.
and if i can adjust the idle low enough that the clutch doesnt engage i may not even need to do anything to the clutch.

but just incase setting the ldle lower doesnt stop the wheel from spinning...

what do i need to do, to make the clutch engage at higher rpm?
i thought the clutch springs with more tension was suposed to do that.
if i need less tension i should put the stock ones back in.

sorry for the hassle and frustration, but i think i may finaly understand what is going on.
once i had it over that 10mph hurdle, it was friggen sweet.
i even had the spedometer topped out at 50 and it still wanted to go a bit faster but i had a stop sign coming up.
i loved every second of it. :D so im sure ive made progress.

[XPS1210]

okay...

What it's all supposed to do...

The front variator is to get the power from the engine to the belt... if the weights are to heavy it will make the belt ride higher on the pulley to fast, however to light and it will allow belt slippage... (this is why I got the over range kit, to allow for the low end power and not have belt slip)... unfortunately after adding performance parts it will cause more issues with belt slip (and you said yours was torn up)...

The belt... IMHO... the stock belt has more "sticky" grip... that's just my opinion... the kevlar belt is supposed to last longer due to the kevlar in it... however I had a polini one that shreaded to nothing... (I'm thinking it was caused by belt slip as the RPM's jump right before the belt blew up).... I also got a malossi one from provo to replace the blown up one... and within 2 rides less than a total of 15 miles, it started to fray on the edges... I'm 99% sure that it was from the belt slipping and shreading from that.. I don't know the answer to this issue, other than to get the over range kit... however I still haven't been able to test it yet (darn winter)...

The rear pulley- the back end of the tranny is supposed to be "torque" responsive... IE: the more power to the wheel it will react different than a 40mph WOT compaired to a stop WOT... Which means... the different strength springs make the rear pulley work more or less... If you have to loose of a spring it will enguage the rear pulley to soon... This is part of your problem I'm guessing... The belt spins and can't get the engine RPM's up before the rear pulley kicks the clutch and it boggs the engine... also part of this could be caused from the variator weights... IMHO, you should use the tighter torque spring, this causes it to need more RPM's on the belt to allow the rear pulley to kick the clutch out so the engine RPM's can get where they are at peak rpm's before it starts to apply the power to the wheel...

The other thing I'd check is the springs on the clutch... If they are to weak it will allow the clutch pads to enguage before it's at the correct RPM's...

So 3 things I'd try... change your weights in the variator... if that doesn't work go back to the original weights... and...
Then try the torque spring... try several variations of this, add shims and such... if there is no change... try to change the clutch springs...

Keep playing with these 3 things till you get it right...

That's all I can think it would be possibly be...

anyone else have anything I could have overlooked?

Let us know what you end up with...
~J~

[XPS1210]

oh yeah...

I wouldn't worry about the idle screw until you get the tranny corrected... bottom line it sounds like you have the wheel enguaging to soon and adjusting the carb will do absolutely nothing till you get the tranny corrected...


Once again, anyone else got any ideas?

[marylandmark]

No ideas other than your excellent write up...

2-strokes are finicky machines..

good luck bro!

[Malformed]

i duno HOW im suposed to get the clutch apart.
ive tried before and i just cant seem to get it off.

[XPS1210]

delta clutch right?

There are 3 little "C" clips pop those off...

Then there are 3 5mm hex bolts to remove... then you can adjust the clutch or change the springs...

[Malformed]

stock clutch with the clutch springs from the stage 2 kit.
along with the torque spring from the same kit.
i still dont think reinstalling the longer & tighter torque spring is going to help, and if it eats up another belt im going to be pissed.
but if i can get the clutch apart i will try it.

but remember i tried the torque spring before, with the stock belt.
the only thing thats different now, is that i replaced the stock belt with a kevlar belt and the mechanic put the stock torque spring back in.
i dont see how the kevlar belt is going to work any better with the longer torque spring than the stock belt did.

jody replaced his stock one with kevlar too, and used the longer/tighter torque spring along with the same variator, rollers (same weight), exhaust, carb, filter, piston/cyl, torque & clutch springs, and it fixed his probs.
so i guess its worth a try! im just not very optimistic at this point.

man, im tired. i spent last night tossing and turning in bed, thinking about this damn scooter.

[XPS1210]

The stock clutch the way you change the springs is with needle nose pliers and a lot of effort... They are kinda a pain to get on and off but it'll happen just takes a little muscle...

95% of the time you need the stronger torque spring... I already explained why as well as in a PM... your choice... change it or don't but I have no more help to offer unless you try what was recommended...

I'm pretty sure that is a majority of the problem but if you don't try it... nothing more will help...

Sorry...

[Malformed]

I'm pretty sure that is a majority of the problem but if you don't try it... nothing more will help...

Sorry...

allready said id try it. :P i just dont know HOW im going to get it taken apart.
recomend any specific tools?
i have this odd feeling that im going to get stuck buying a huge ass channel lock, and a crecent wrench big enough to fit the nut.

[XPS1210]

okay... the tools needed to remove the rear pulley assembly... I recommend leather gloves... I skinned my nuckle to the bone the 1st time I took this apart!

you will need a 5mm hex wrench, to remove the tranny cover...

17mm socket or wrench to remove the nut on the pulley assembly (this is for the front or rear pulleys. I used to use a pair of vise grips to clamp on the clutch shoe but now use a strap wrench... Either will work but be careful so you don't damage any parts with the vise grips...

once the nut is off the bell will come off... followed by the rear pulley assembly.

Then I believe it's a 44mm or 45mm nut look in my how to section I think I posted it under the over range install thread... I used a large pair of Vise Grips but this damages the threads...

Just barely loosen the 44mm nut and then put your knee on the clutch to hold it togeather while you remove the nut... if you don't you'll get hurt by it FLYING APART! TRUST ME!!!!!!!!!

Once you get the nut off it's pretty simple... take the clutch out of the way, remove the spring and replace with differents spring... or add shims etc...

it goes back the same way you take it off...


If you need more help let me know...

~J~

[Malformed]

the first nut i need to take off for the clutch is bigger than my biggest socket, which is 19mm.
its also bigger than my socket set at work, and they are bigger than 19mm.
so im not sure which size i need.
if i knew, id just buy the socket. ;)

[XPS1210]

okay... just say you are working on a vento... sorry... the nut sizes are obviously different but the parts should all be the same for the most part and in close order...

Not sure what size the nuts are on your set up... :( sorry!

[Elliott]

Malformed put some pictures So we Can See them if Possible... :)

[Malformed]

ok, but what sort of pictures?

the scooter itself is actualy pretty beat up and dirty from being worked on so much.
and rusted from the salt air from living on the gulf of mexico.
it realy is a piece of ****. lol

im actualy thinking of buying a 250 or 500 ninja, they are pretty cheap all things considered, and i wont need to fight with it constantly.

[Malformed]

got the idle and mix adjusted better, but still not perfect.
having a hard time starting it with the pushbutton on the handelbar, need to kickstart it.
but that could be the batery, i need to charge it.

its roadworthy now, but i still have that accelleration prob, soon as i canm i will pop that torque spring in and see if it helps, but im pesimistic.
hopefully it will work though and i can ride it around for a while before something else breaks on it. lol

[Malformed]

any thoughts on cutting the variator tabs?
i cant remember off hand, but i think my variator may have the full length tabs.

i will check when i get the cover off.

[Lennox]

just dont cut them all the way off..... but half way will help your low end ;)

[Malformed]

got some pics.

you can see there isnt much room for the belt to get smaller.
http://www.makeitstop.org/scooter/belt/2.jpg

but there is room for the belt fo get bigger on the clutch... i think more than when i was using a stock belt (compare pics 2 and 3 to see what i mean.)
i still need to put the torque spring back in, but as far as i see the belt is still going to ride at the same spot on the clutch because of the size of the belt.

kevlar belt
http://www.makeitstop.org/scooter/belt/1.jpg

stock belt
http://www.makeitstop.org/scooter/tuning/crap%20(1).jpg

[Malformed]

got the numbers off the belts...

stock is:
788 17 28

kevlar that i got from provo:
780 16.5 30

did i get the wrong kevlar belt or something? :confused:

[XPS1210]

those are part numbers? listed on the belt? if so, that's not a big deal... just different manufacturer parts...

The rear pulley looks like the belt is sitting to far into the pulley it should be almost at the top of the pulley...

I'd try it with the torque spring and double check with provo to make sure you recieved the correct belt... I doubt it's incorrect but you never know...

what brand is the kevlar one? It doesn't look like a malossi one to me? I could be brain farting as I'm tired though...

[XPS1210]

can you post a clear pic of the kevlar and stock belts side by side with the part numbers being readable? Just want to get a better look of them... as well if you can post a pic with the sides of the belt (so we get a profile view) that'd be awesome as well...

I'm not seeing that the kevlar one you have on as being kevlar in the pic you posted of it... it looks more like a stock replacement one to me... but the pics are kinda hard to tell as they are a little on the blurry side to me...

[Malformed]

its dark out, all the pics turn out like that, sorry.

It doesn't look like a malossi one to me?
its not, but i was told it was the same.

the bag the belt came in said:
DRIVE BELT
KEV COMPOUND
YAMAHA VINO

The rear pulley looks like the belt is sitting to far into the pulley it should be almost at the top of the pulley...

yea, thats exactly why i posted the pics.
there isnt realy any slack in the belt, so i dont see how the torque spring is going to make it ride higher on the clutch and lower on the variator, if there is not enough room on the variator for the belt to go (get smaller).

i allready emailed Erich about the belt when it first got here and was told its fine and the changes to the dimensions were to boost performance,
but from what i understood, if the kevlar belt is shorter or longer than the stock one, its not going to sit in the same spot on the clutch.
i used a string to measure the kevlar belt, and i believe it was shorter than the stock one.

[XPS1210]

IMO the stock and kevlar should be the same length...

I can't see why the belt would be shorter...

Another thing you can do... is there anyway to move the rear pulley on the variator back, is it resting on anything other than where the round peg sits? That part should be touching on the rear only, the 3 guides on the back shouldn't be...

So if you grind the posts a little (half or less off) then it could open the variator more... but you need to look at it before you do it... to make sure you don't mess anything up...

I still say that belt is to short... by the numbers... since it's the same manufacturer... That the 16.5 and 17 numbers are diameter inches... but they packaged it as a belt for the vino... so I am stumped...

donno what to tell you other than call the number I sent you and ask them to verify that the belt is correct...

Let us know what you find out...

[Malformed]

actualy, i thought 788 / 780 was the length in mm.
16.5 and 17 was the width in mm.
i dont know what the 28/30 is for.

here is the email i got back from erich months ago when i bought the belt.


The Kevlar belt is not made by Malossi but it is in every way the same
product, just without the name. And I was able to lower the price on them,
with the Malossi I had to sell them for $49, when I was able to get these, I
didn't keep the price the same and pocket the money like most places would
do, I dropped the price down to $39.

The belt does have a little different dimensions, and that is to the benefit
of performance.

I know the picture has a Malossi belt, but I do not mention the brand in the
product description. I just haven't had a minute to take a new picture.
Sorry if you feel misled, that was not my intent. I'll get a new picture up.

Erich